Genuine Ansel Adams photos picked up at Garage Sale for $45

It has been authenticated and the collection is worth millions. "An American collector has become an overnight multimillionaire after a set of 65 glass negatives he picked up at a garage sale turned out to be genuine Ansel Adams works, he and his lawyer said Tuesday." http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100728/tts-us-art-photography-offbeat-c1b2fc3.html -- Never buy version 1.0 of anything.

Their authenticity is disputed by the Adams Machine. "forgeries" is the word they used. the provenance is broken. the "authentication" was paid for by the "lawyer". "genuine" is such a soft word in art history. -- Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates Photons by the bag. Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada -----.....------ if I mock you, it may be well deserved.

drh681 wrote: Their authenticity is disputed by the Adams Machine. "forgeries" is the word they used. the provenance is broken. the "authentication" was paid for by the "lawyer". "genuine" is such a soft word in art history.
That's the expected positions for both sides.

Adams heirs, not the current owner of the negatives, own the copyright in his images. So, if these really are Adams' negatives, the current owner of the negatives cannot publish the prints without permission, any more than someone who bought one of his original prints can reproduce it. If they are not Adams' negatives, the current owner can't publish them with a claim that they are. Lawyer alert!! Lawyer alert!! Leaving the lawyers out of it, the prints would not be by Adams, even if he did make the negatives, and that matters. A lot of work went on in Adams' darkroom between the negative and the finished print. Anyone who is interested in Adams - or in the art of cropping - should look at http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/anseladams/ (all his negatives from the Japanese-American internment camp series, with the scanned negatives displayed next to his final print).

It doesn't matter if they are prints or glass negatives, they are worth millions because Adams took the shot. For example, if you had two Kentucky rifles and one was in poor condition but owned by Davy Crockett and the other like new, what one would bring the higher price? They could be the worst photos Adams ever took it would make no difference, it's because they were Adams that makes them valuable. Even if they could not be published, and I'm not sure about that, to a collector they would be worth a small fortune.

Sure, people would buy them - but not for $200M (why they would is another matter). The owner could print from the negatives and display the prints privately, just not publish them. -- A l'eau, c'est l'heure! (French naval motto)

Les Olson wrote: Sure, people would buy them - but not for $200M (why they would is another matter). The owner could print from the negatives and display the prints privately, just not publish them. -- A l'eau, c'est l'heure! (French naval motto)
If Adams sold the negatives to someone then they belong to the new owner. He can then print them till the cows come home.

Foxwizgsk wrote:
Les Olson wrote: Sure, people would buy them - but not for $200M (why they would is another matter). The owner could print from the negatives and display the prints privately, just not publish them. -- A l'eau, c'est l'heure! (French naval motto)
If Adams sold the negatives to someone then they belong to the new owner. He can then print them till the cows come home.
Depends on the paper work. We have no knowledge of what was sold, or bought, or when, that I have heard. If Adams sold the copyright, then the negs can be printed. If he sold only publication rights, then, probably not. It may prove impossible to prove one way or the other at this late date, just as it may be nearly impossible to prove whether or not Adams actually took the shots. There are an awful lot of "ifs" in between the $5 purchase and the $200,000,000 sale. Or any sale for a useful amount of money.

drh681 wrote:
"...genuine" is such a soft word in art history...
Check out this link: it says it all! http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23421598-the-artful-codgers-pensioners-who-conned-british-museums-with-10m-forgeries.do

I understand the family is disputing the claim that the plates are the work of Ansel. Whether this will have any bearing on the matter is only a matter of speculation. The lawyer representing the gentleman has been quoted as saying the plates will have a value of $200 mil or more. I would certainly like to have a print or two from those glass plates but I fear the going price will be a bit above my budget. Drat! Another desire goes unrequited. -- Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

I am greatly amused by all the "sea lawyers" on DPR, wonder just how many actually have a law degree and are accepted by the bar of any state? Opinions are like "armpits" everyone has a couple and they usually smell accordingly. -- ' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

Bill Force wrote: I am greatly amused by all the "sea lawyers" on DPR, wonder just how many actually have a law degree and are accepted by the bar of any state? Opinions are like "armpits" everyone has a couple and they usually smell accordingly.
I smell ya.

Bill Force wrote: I am greatly amused by all the "sea lawyers" on DPR, wonder just how many actually have a law degree and are accepted by the bar of any state? Opinions are like "armpits" everyone has a couple and they usually smell accordingly. -- ' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.
The copyright of the last one will expire 15 years from today. According to the CNN link.. "Art, forensic, handwriting and weather experts teamed up to conclude the 65 glass plates in the boxes were photographic negatives created more than 80 years ago by Ansel Adams, the iconic American photographer whose images of the West inspired the country." This chart explains when a photographic copyright expires. http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm For that time frame, 95 years maximum before they become public domain. Dave

No. Because they have not been published if Adams is the author they are copyright for his life plus seventy years. If the author is unknown they get ... who cares? -- A l'eau, c'est l'heure! (French naval motto)

Les Olson wrote: No. Because they have not been published if Adams is the author they are copyright for his life plus seventy years. If the author is unknown they get ... who cares? -- A l'eau, c'est l'heure! (French naval motto)
I have 67 of his glass negatives. Oddly enough on the very bottom it says, "Made in Japan." Would this be a problem in confirming authenticity? Dave

An interesting comment from the Ansel Adams Trust who contest the claim----- "Even if they [ negatives] were they would have no value. [Adams] interpreted the negatives very heavily.....the negative is not the photograph."

Wahian wrote: An interesting comment from the Ansel Adams Trust who contest the claim----- "Even if they [ negatives] were they would have no value. [Adams] interpreted the negatives very heavily.....the negative is not the photograph."
They have to be kidding? If these are authentic, collectors wont give a damn about these qualifications. Dave

Chato wrote: I have 67 of his glass negatives. Oddly enough on the very bottom it says, "Made in Japan." Would this be a problem in confirming authenticity?
No more of a problem than confirming the authenticity of the bridge I purchased from you. -- Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

Chipsthe1 wrote:
Chato wrote: I have 67 of his glass negatives. Oddly enough on the very bottom it says, "Made in Japan." Would this be a problem in confirming authenticity?
No more of a problem than confirming the authenticity of the bridge I purchased from you. -- Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame
And NOW you complain? Look your check bounced anyway!!!! BTW: I'm going to be posting an image of a nipple. If the nipple is from a woman, it's obscene. If from a man, it's ho hum. Will the site ban the picture if they don't know whose nipple the image is from? Gonna take Soloman to get this right... Dave

If they were never published (which seems to be the case) and were created before 1/1/78, copyright is Life + 70 years, which means the copyright expires in 2054, and therefore has another 44 years, all assuming that these were Adams' works.

Bill Force wrote: I am greatly amused by all the "sea lawyers" on DPR, wonder just how many actually have a law degree and are accepted by the bar of any state?
I do not have a law degree but indeed I have been accepted to many bars in many States. A good many foreign bars as well. Admittedly I have been asked to leave some and escorted out from others but have always been accepted in them. I prefer not to mention the state I was in when removed from the bar although you can probably guess. Thank you for asking. Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

Chipsthe1 wrote:
Bill Force wrote: I am greatly amused by all the "sea lawyers" on DPR, wonder just how many actually have a law degree and are accepted by the bar of any state?
I do not have a law degree but indeed I have been accepted to many bars in many States. A good many foreign bars as well. Admittedly I have been asked to leave some and escorted out from others but have always been accepted in them. I prefer not to mention the state I was in when removed from the bar although you can probably guess. Thank you for asking. Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame
DId you know that New York does NOT require a Law Degree to become a lawyer? Yup, you have to prove that you worked for a lawyer, and then you can take the Bar Exam. I believe we're the only State with this option. Dave

I'm proud of you, at your age I'm surprised you can hobble to a bar or even "fog" a mirror -- ' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html Mike Johnson was right about this. They are by Uncle Earl... -- Trying...

Bill Force wrote: I'm proud of you, at your age I'm surprised you can hobble to a bar or even "fog" a mirror
I am rather proud of that as well. As well as surprised that such a feat is still possible. To quote a well used saying among us old folks, "If I had known I was going to live so damn long I would have taken better care of myself."

Chipsthe1 wrote:
Bill Force wrote: I'm proud of you, at your age I'm surprised you can hobble to a bar or even "fog" a mirror
I am rather proud of that as well. As well as surprised that such a feat is still possible. To quote a well used saying among us old folks, "If I had known I was going to live so damn long I would have taken better care of myself."
That I totally missed the joke? And to make matters worse, it wasn't a bad joke at all... Dave

wklee wrote: It has been authenticated and the collection is worth millions. "An American collector has become an overnight multimillionaire after a set of 65 glass negatives he picked up at a garage sale turned out to be genuine Ansel Adams works, he and his lawyer said Tuesday." http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100728/tts-us-art-photography-offbeat-c1b2fc3.html -- Never buy version 1.0 of anything.
"he and his lawyer said" is the key phrase. This guy has been trying to convince people for at least 10 years that theses are Adams's negatives. The media ran with this way too early without doing their homework.

Andr3w wrote:
wklee wrote: It has been authenticated and the collection is worth millions. "An American collector has become an overnight multimillionaire after a set of 65 glass negatives he picked up at a garage sale turned out to be genuine Ansel Adams works, he and his lawyer said Tuesday." http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100728/tts-us-art-photography-offbeat-c1b2fc3.html -- Never buy version 1.0 of anything.
"he and his lawyer said" is the key phrase. This guy has been trying to convince people for at least 10 years that theses are Adams's negatives. The media ran with this way too early without doing their homework.
The media likes to make things up and people like to believe, it is a vicious cycle.

What about Earl?

yeah what about Uncle Earl? He lived in Fresno, and went to Yosemite on a regular basis. He took a picture of that same "Lone Pine" on Sentinel Dome. from the same place at the same time of day. ( a subject only slightly less photographed than "Delicate Arch" ) the "Uncle Earl" claim is just as specious as the "Found Adams" If I were guessing, considering the images seem to have originated in the Los Angeles area, I might look at the associates of Edward Weston. Art History is about connecting the dots. Sometime the dots have connecitions to loose threads. -- Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates Photons by the bag. Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada -----.....------ if I mock you, it may be well deserved.

drh681 wrote: yeah what about Uncle Earl? He lived in Fresno, and went to Yosemite on a regular basis. He took a picture of that same "Lone Pine" on Sentinel Dome. from the same place at the same time of day. ( a subject only slightly less photographed than "Delicate Arch" ) the "Uncle Earl" claim is just as specious as the "Found Adams" If I were guessing, considering the images seem to have originated in the Los Angeles area, I might look at the associates of Edward Weston. Art History is about connecting the dots. Sometime the dots have connecitions to loose threads. -- Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates Photons by the bag. Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada -----.....------ if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
The handwriting on the envelopes matches that of Adams wife. A genuine, AND independent handwriting expert is going to have to chime in. No doubt that will eventually occur. Dave

Chato wrote: A genuine, AND independent handwriting expert is going to have to chime in. No doubt that will eventually occur. Dave
The article I read said two experts have comfirmed the handwriting match and the grandson contests the findings because grandma was educated and would never have mis-spelled the words that were mis-spelled... http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/ansel-adams-grandson-lost-negatives-arent-authentic/19570601

DjD_a700 wrote:
Chato wrote: A genuine, AND independent handwriting expert is going to have to chime in. No doubt that will eventually occur. Dave
The article I read said two experts have comfirmed the handwriting match and the grandson contests the findings because grandma was educated and would never have mis-spelled the words that were mis-spelled... http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/ansel-adams-grandson-lost-negatives-arent-authentic/19570601
I just question the "independence" of a hired gun expert... I hesitate to make any kind of judgement, but I kind of doubt that anyone is going to shell out BIG BUCK$ without a disinterested judgment on both the handwriting and the images. Dave

Chato wrote:
drh681 wrote: yeah what about Uncle Earl? He lived in Fresno, and went to Yosemite on a regular basis. He took a picture of that same "Lone Pine" on Sentinel Dome. from the same place at the same time of day. ( a subject only slightly less photographed than "Delicate Arch" ) the "Uncle Earl" claim is just as specious as the "Found Adams" If I were guessing, considering the images seem to have originated in the Los Angeles area, I might look at the associates of Edward Weston. Art History is about connecting the dots. Sometime the dots have connecitions to loose threads. -- Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates Photons by the bag. Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada -----.....------ if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
The handwriting on the envelopes matches that of Adams wife. A genuine, AND independent handwriting expert is going to have to chime in. No doubt that will eventually occur.
Easy solution: Uncle Earl had this thing going with Adam's wife.

Now you're just stirring things up! -- Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates Photons by the bag. Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada -----.....------ if I mock you, it may be well deserved.

My old negs are also for sale...want to be the next millionaire ??

So even the grandson may not be a genuine reproduction? Best regards David

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wklee wrote: It has been authenticated and the collection is worth millions. "An American collector has become an overnight multimillionaire after a set of 65 glass negatives he picked up at a garage sale turned out to be genuine Ansel Adams works, he and his lawyer said Tuesday." http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100728/tts-us-art-photography-offbeat-c1b2fc3.html
The Ansel Adams Trust's lawyers have responed. http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/ansel-adams-trust-sues-over-lost-work/ -- Regards, Carl

Heheh, I just visited http://www.ricknorsigian.com/lost_html/events.html and got a chuckle over the form. You can select whether or not to subscribe to the newsletter. Options are Yes and No. There is another field where you can select whether to be contacted about purchasing prints. The options there are: "Yes". Right. Only one option. I think not. -- View: original size

Victor Engel wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/arts/design/31adams.html -- View: original size
I read the whole artticle and like the expert who is quoted, I too would like to believe the images are real (whine, snivel, whine) so I'm still waiting for a handwriting expert to speak up... But it doesn't look good... Dave

Chato wrote:
Victor Engel wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/arts/design/31adams.html -- View: original size
I read the whole artticle and like the expert who is quoted, I too would like to believe the images are real (whine, snivel, whine) so I'm still waiting for a handwriting expert to speak up... But it doesn't look good...
Whether they were taking by Adams or not, they should not be sold as Adams pictures. If they are Adams pictures, they don't have permission from the copyright holders. If they are not Adams pictures, they shouldn't be sold as Adams pictures. I'm not sure how they think they can sell them. -- View: original size

Victor Engel wrote: Whether they were taking by Adams or not, they should not be sold as Adams pictures. If they are Adams pictures, they don't have permission from the copyright holders. If they are not Adams pictures, they shouldn't be sold as Adams pictures. I'm not sure how they think they can sell them. -- View: original size
I've got boxes of my Fathers pictures (and negatives) from the 20's, 30's, and 40's. Would you believe that they are all actually by Cartier Bresson? Give em to ya cheap! Dave

Chato wrote:
Victor Engel wrote: Whether they were taking by Adams or not, they should not be sold as Adams pictures. If they are Adams pictures, they don't have permission from the copyright holders. If they are not Adams pictures, they shouldn't be sold as Adams pictures. I'm not sure how they think they can sell them. -- View: original size
I've got boxes of my Fathers pictures (and negatives) from the 20's, 30's, and 40's. Would you believe that they are all actually by Cartier Bresson? Give em to ya cheap! Dave
That means that either you or the photos are illegitimate! Seriously though, it reminds me of a recent story about the whereabouts of Elmer Crawford who is wanted for murdering his family back in 1970. It is a case with which I am familiar and the story was that a "drifter" in the US who died a few years ago without the authorities knowing quite who he was on account of a number of false IDs he had with him (and a lack of fingerprints on his fingers), was thought to look "a bit" like what Elmer Crawford could have looked like 40 years on. Well, the experts - in this case the FBI - said that they had made photometric measurements of features on two photographs. One was a photograph (yes there is a photographic connection) of Crawford taken in the 1960's and the other one of "John Doe", and the FBI said that it was 99% certain they were one and the same man. In my opinion (as well as the opinion of a friend who is also familiar with the case), it couldn't possibly have been him on the basis of his behaviour both before and after the murders, but then the FBI were 99% certain... To cut a long story short, DNA from a known surviving relative of Elmer Crawford proved categorically that the FBI's John Doe was NOT him at all. I think it just goes to show that a great deal of supposition and "corroborating evidence" from any expert or group of "experts" will not stand up to the smallest fact !

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