Samsung getting ready for major overhaul of it's brand image

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Samsung Preparing to Reveal 'Radical Brand Makeover' Curious to see how that will affect the NX line. My guess is that they no longer wish to be thought of as a cheap Asian manufacturing company. They certainly have come a long way, because at one point that is exactly what they were.

They are well beyond that mark. They are thought of as this gadget camera makers brand among enthusiast/amateur photogs. And they did some things that shows otherwise (lenses!) and some things that confirms this. I would have believed if Samsung did what Sony did with the NEX or panny/Oly with m43s, with the very same name they would have done better then they are doing now.

Buy your cheap NX glass now because prices are gonna start to go up in the new year! I have full faith in samsung NX as a system and look forward to how they start the new year.

I have m43 cams and an EPL5 on the way. Would love to succeed Samsung though! They are getting more attention lately in some shops, so at least locally they are doing better. Lenses seem to be worht more, so I understand that. I also think the lenses for Panny and Oly are the moneymakers. Why not for Samsung?

Jorginho wrote: I have m43 cams and an EPL5 on the way. Would love to succeed Samsung though! They are getting more attention lately in some shops, so at least locally they are doing better. Lenses seem to be worht more, so I understand that. I also think the lenses for Panny and Oly are the moneymakers. Why not for Samsung?
I dont know why samsung lenses can be bought so cheap-well in uk anyway. The 30mm f2 which is a great lens is rrp around £220=£300 but can be bought new for £89 from ebay. Same for the rest-bought way under half of the rrp. So how much are these sellers buying them for? and where are they getting them from? And if totally legit then how can samsung make anymoney? Its good for us NX consumers but where is samsung making any profit?

Photpaque Its all rather simple. There was not enough marketing being done by Samsung in the imaging division to entice the large direct accounts to promote, or to majorly push, the nx at pos. There was also not enough consumer demand to push the small sellers or independents to stimulate sales via wholesalers to indirect resellers. So, the nx line has been bought at almost direct prices to resellers, but by the end user, via sell offs or eBay etc. None of this effects, or as any bearing on, the quality of the product, the nx range is extremely good quality -a rather well kept secret in fact. However, certain people are unable to make their own decisions in such matters, and tend to look for cues, such as joringho, who is a well known pontificator in favour of marketing prowess, with little to say on actual photography, and a man who is well known to have only ever owned one brand of camera (panasonic - surprise surprise) In any event, and ad homonims aside, it is well known that once the nx marketing machine starts moving the prices will increase quite significantly. So, in short, the nx lenses are not "cheap lenses", they are "bargains", at the moment. Once the brand is accepted, say following an aggressive marketing campaign, the route to market will be far tighter. The sad thing is these will be more or less the same lenses that dpr readers, with an open mind and a few spare quid (i.e not joringho and his type who have far more time than money), are buying now for 89 quid. In any case, all the best, especially with regard to luck.

timedrun wrote: Photpaque Its all rather simple. There was not enough marketing being done by Samsung in the imaging division to entice the large direct accounts to promote, or to majorly push, the nx at pos. There was also not enough consumer demand to push the small sellers or independents to stimulate sales via wholesalers to indirect resellers. So, the nx line has been bought at almost direct prices to resellers, but by the end user, via sell offs or eBay etc. None of this effects, or as any bearing on, the quality of the product, the nx range is extremely good quality -a rather well kept secret in fact. However, certain people are unable to make their own decisions in such matters, and tend to look for cues, such as joringho, who is a well known pontificator in favour of marketing prowess, with little to say on actual photography, and a man who is well known to have only ever owned one brand of camera (panasonic - surprise surprise) In any event, and ad homonims aside, it is well known that once the nx marketing machine starts moving the prices will increase quite significantly. So, in short, the nx lenses are not "cheap lenses", they are "bargains", at the moment. Once the brand is accepted, say following an aggressive marketing campaign, the route to market will be far tighter. The sad thing is these will be more or less the same lenses that dpr readers, with an open mind and a few spare quid (i.e not joringho and his type who have far more time than money), are buying now for 89 quid. In any case, all the best, especially with regard to luck.
This is all pie in the sky nonsense. Mirrorless lenses generally are expensive compared with DSLR lenses. Look at all the Sony Alpha lens you can get for £130 just as one example It also unlikely that NX will be accepted in the near future and making the system more expensive than it is would be disastrous for sales. This rebranding will be superficial and just mean flashier home pages. As you dig down the implementation will still be poor and the lens firmware still hidden away in the NX10 firmware page. Tamron 18-200 = £169 - Samsung NX 18-200 = £699. The Samsung lens may be high standard but anyone wanting an all purpose aps-c long zoom would find NX a very expensive option and you think prices going up will increase market penetration? Also longer than 200mm just does not exist in NX.

Hi GN I wasn't talking about "mirrorless" lenses, I was talking about NX lenses, mainly because we are on an NXforum and that is a mount I maintain,but also because most mirrorless lenses are ridiculously overpriced. I would suggest that the class of lense that is most overpriced, on any mount, is the ones that make the least sense, or those with the least market. So, pancake prime lenses for SLR mounts are really expensive, probably because there is little mileage in sticking a weensy 20mm flat lens on a camera with a grip that sticks out 60mm. likewise its rather pointless whacking a huge zoom an a flat mirrorless body. No magic. Just humans picking tools. Armed with this knowledgeit is even possible to predict which FL range/lens combinations will be the most popular/least expensive on a given format before it is even made. A hypothetical example is, lets say, an APSC 100-400 f2.0-f2.8 zoom, a lense that probably doesnt exist. I'll bet my house this lense will sell far more on either canon or nikon slr mounts thanit will on every mirrorless mount combined. another, is, an APSC 30mm f2.0 pancake, which is 20mm thick. This lens will be a winner on any mirrorless APSC mount, and in fact sells for 89 quid on NX mount, rather pointless on a Nikon SLR with a battery grip though. This is a 3-400 quid lens on that format. This is probaly why the one lens you picked, 18-200mm zoom, is so expensive on nx mirrorless mount and the 30mm i picked is so cheap on this mirorless mount. In any case, good luck and all the best.

timedrun wrote: Hi GN I wasn't talking about "mirrorless" lenses, I was talking about NX lenses, mainly because we are on an NXforum and that is a mount I maintain,but also because most mirrorless lenses are ridiculously overpriced. I would suggest that the class of lense that is most overpriced, on any mount, is the ones that make the least sense, or those with the least market. So, pancake prime lenses for SLR mounts are really expensive, probably because there is little mileage in sticking a weensy 20mm flat lens on a camera with a grip that sticks out 60mm. likewise its rather pointless whacking a huge zoom an a flat mirrorless body. No magic. Just humans picking tools. Armed with this knowledgeit is even possible to predict which FL range/lens combinations will be the most popular/least expensive on a given format before it is even made. A hypothetical example is, lets say, an APSC 100-400 f2.0-f2.8 zoom, a lense that probably doesnt exist. I'll bet my house this lense will sell far more on either canon or nikon slr mounts thanit will on every mirrorless mount combined. another, is, an APSC 30mm f2.0 pancake, which is 20mm thick. This lens will be a winner on any mirrorless APSC mount, and in fact sells for 89 quid on NX mount, rather pointless on a Nikon SLR with a battery grip though. This is a 3-400 quid lens on that format. This is probaly why the one lens you picked, 18-200mm zoom, is so expensive on nx mirrorless mount and the 30mm i picked is so cheap on this mirorless mount. In any case, good luck and all the best.
How many dollars equate to "89 quid"? I'm serious......I can't remember, if I ever even knew, anyway.....

About 130 dollars.

In the argument here, i see multiple valid points re. IQ, roadmaps, investments and future system. [*]In the APS CSC segment, some of the NX series remains bargain priced, mainly 3-4 older items issued prior to the 'new image'. [*]These are, e.g., NX100 with 20-50mm kit, 30mm, and occasionally the 20 or the 16mm primes. [*]Given their outlier character in IQ/$ --ca. 2x better than their class-- IMHO, it's perhaps worth stocking up before they dry up.[*]The above NX glass is attractive also wrt. their compact size, not only IQ/$. However, unlike the SLR and legacy glass w/ manual controls, the electronic NX lenses will work ONLY on NX bodies. This remains a serious demerit of an otherwise good optical design. Why?[*]The current 20Mp NX bodies are no longer bargains. The future trend seems up in price and marketing. The 20Mp sensor is improved indeed vs. the 14.6Mp, but not as good my NEX Exmors, which are arguably better in DR and noise, and also cheaper after 6-9 months (i just bought another NEX-C3 for $200, see 1st trials https://picasaweb.google.com/104896643939448365565/FirstShotsNEXC3JPGQuasiOOCExceptPicasaCropTone). [*]This raises the question why would one invest in the good and compact NX glass that can't be used beyond the average IQ/$ new NX bodies? [*]Unlike NEX (which doesn't benefit from great native glass), Samsung doesn't agree to open the NX mount, nor their camera operating system (Android is open only for addon apps, not kernel and f/w features). Hence a walled NX garden a la Apple, in stead of an open ecosystem.[*]I argue that --despite price and size-- the best long term strategy remains in investing in top SLR glass, primes and zooms for FF. These can be adapted ($9) to both NEX and NX bodies, and yield great results, actually superior to the already good NX glass. [*]The main benefit of the native NX glass remains compact travel kits, not as future investment holding its value 10-30 yrs later.[*]Finally, increasing their marketing and pricing levels is not likely beneficial to Samsung. While i merrily use a number of Samsung products, i have no loyalty. IMHO, Samsung, Fuji, Sony etc. can not expect the emotional response and loyal follow-ship of e.g., Leica, Apple, or even Nikon, Canon. This arguably a market reality as of 2012, and may change.

migus wrote: In the argument here, i see multiple valid points re. IQ, roadmaps, investments and future system. [*]In the APS CSC segment, some of the NX series remains bargain priced, mainly 3-4 older items issued prior to the 'new image'.[*]These are, e.g., NX100 with 20-50mm kit, 30mm, and occasionally the 20 or the 16mm primes.[*]Given their outlier character in IQ/$ --ca. 2x better than their class-- IMHO, it's perhaps worth stocking up before they dry up.[*]The above NX glass is attractive also wrt. their compact size, not only IQ/$. However, unlike the SLR and legacy glass w/ manual controls, the electronic NX lenses will work ONLY on NX bodies. This remains a serious demerit of an otherwise good optical design. Why?[*]The current 20Mp NX bodies are no longer bargains. The future trend seems up in price and marketing. The 20Mp sensor is improved indeed vs. the 14.6Mp, but not as good my NEX Exmors, which are arguably better in DR and noise, and also cheaper after 6-9 months (i just bought another NEX-C3 for $200, see 1st trials https://picasaweb.google.com/104896643939448365565/FirstShotsNEXC3JPGQuasiOOCExceptPicasaCropTone).[*]This raises the question why would one invest in the good and compact NX glass that can't be used beyond the average IQ/$ new NX bodies?[*]Unlike NEX (which doesn't benefit from great native glass), Samsung doesn't agree to open the NX mount, nor their camera operating system (Android is open only for addon apps, not kernel and f/w features). Hence a walled NX garden a la Apple, in stead of an open ecosystem.[*]I argue that --despite price and size-- the best long term strategy remains in investing in top SLR glass, primes and zooms for FF. These can be adapted ($9) to both NEX and NX bodies, and yield great results, actually superior to the already good NX glass.[*]The main benefit of the native NX glass remains compact travel kits, not as future investment holding its value 10-30 yrs later.[*]Finally, increasing their marketing and pricing levels is not likely beneficial to Samsung. While i merrily use a number of Samsung products, i have no loyalty. IMHO, Samsung, Fuji, Sony etc. can not expect the emotional response and loyal follow-ship of e.g., Leica, Apple, or even Nikon, Canon. This arguably a market reality as of 2012, and may change.
Mitch, I cannot fault your reasoning. But notwithstanding that, I went ahead and ordered a (proprietary) NX 85mm f/1.4 lens anyway! So I suppose that means I'm a 'glass half full' optimistic personality Re: 1) Agree; the old 'bargain-basement' era for NX finished about same time as last stocks of NX10 dried up. Re: 5) Agree again. But the 14.6Mp sensor is still good (for me anyway). And there's little doubt the NX2xx pricing will need to get adjusted downward when (or if) the NX-R model arrives. Re: 7) Agree 100%. They need to open up the NX mount to Tamron (et al), just like the NEX mount is already. I think the best outcome (for continued NX viability) would be for Galaxy Camera (and friends) to be well received. In other words, Samsung is betting the farm that WiFi/4G connectivity will be the disruptive technology that overturns the entrenched order. When (or if) that happens, that's when NX outcome should get clearer, I expect.

Kudos for the 85mm f/1.4, i expect it to be a fine lens. As an aside, i still wonder what CAD tools Samsung uses, and who's responsible for their surprisingly good optic designs... when most of the other 'competitors' are nowhere this compact and clean (Sony included), or exotically expensive. Please don't let my rather cold reasoning interfere w/ your decisions. Your metrics and targets may differ substantially from mine. Oft times my wife and friends think of me as being too efficiency-obsessed, analytically disregarding the human factors (which caused so much trouble on The Street :-). IMHO, if a lens costs more than a few 100s, i consider it an investment - hence it should hold its value against inflation across decades and actually appreciate w/ time. I tend to work w/ far horizons. This excludes nearly any consumer lens made of plastic, non-manual mode lens, having too sensitive OIS elements (e.g., some of Canon's L have fragile floating parts), or known design issues (e.g., some of my 'legendary' nikkors have widely known aperture troubles - oil and springs). However, i have no qualms in using (multiple) $70 P&S like A1200 (https://picasaweb.google.com/mgusat/FlowersHomeWA1200), right along w/ the bigger 'boys' NX, NEX and canikons (i still love those bright OVFs!). If the IQ/$ or the form factor are right, everything goes :-). Mitch

@migus: Exactly. Great glass is an 'investment' (sort of), whereas camera bodies tend to come and go. Regarding purchase decision-making process, yes a reasoned approach is a good basis. But on top of that, I'd add that a discretionary purchase (like a nice lens) really needs to 'blow my skirt up' as well, or else I'm not interested. But it's kinda difficult to quantify that factor, let alone rationalize it and put it in a spreadsheet.

Greynerd wrote:
timedrun wrote: Photpaque Its all rather simple. There was not enough marketing being done by Samsung in the imaging division to entice the large direct accounts to promote, or to majorly push, the nx at pos. There was also not enough consumer demand to push the small sellers or independents to stimulate sales via wholesalers to indirect resellers. So, the nx line has been bought at almost direct prices to resellers, but by the end user, via sell offs or eBay etc. None of this effects, or as any bearing on, the quality of the product, the nx range is extremely good quality -a rather well kept secret in fact. However, certain people are unable to make their own decisions in such matters, and tend to look for cues, such as joringho, who is a well known pontificator in favour of marketing prowess, with little to say on actual photography, and a man who is well known to have only ever owned one brand of camera (panasonic - surprise surprise) In any event, and ad homonims aside, it is well known that once the nx marketing machine starts moving the prices will increase quite significantly. So, in short, the nx lenses are not "cheap lenses", they are "bargains", at the moment. Once the brand is accepted, say following an aggressive marketing campaign, the route to market will be far tighter. The sad thing is these will be more or less the same lenses that dpr readers, with an open mind and a few spare quid (i.e not joringho and his type who have far more time than money), are buying now for 89 quid. In any case, all the best, especially with regard to luck.
This is all pie in the sky nonsense. Mirrorless lenses generally are expensive compared with DSLR lenses. Look at all the Sony Alpha lens you can get for £130 just as one example It also unlikely that NX will be accepted in the near future and making the system more expensive than it is would be disastrous for sales. This rebranding will be superficial and just mean flashier home pages. As you dig down the implementation will still be poor and the lens firmware still hidden away in the NX10 firmware page. Tamron 18-200 = £169 - Samsung NX 18-200 = £699. The Samsung lens may be high standard but anyone wanting an all purpose aps-c long zoom would find NX a very expensive option and you think prices going up will increase market penetration? Also longer than 200mm just does not exist in NX.
The money is in the lenses - there seems to be every indication that Samsung is trying to make the NX system a closed one just as much as the M4/3 and NEX systems are "trying" to remain a little "open". Therefore if the financial problems of Sharp/Panasonic/Sony authoritively reported through a link elsewhere on this thread are leading Panasonic and Sony at least to flood the market with variety of product at competitive prices then surely Samsung only has to wait and keep their powder dry until after the inevitable fall out.

Brand image, marketing, logos. I hope it comes with a more serious technical approach than the half-hearted NX camera family so far despite all the original world domination plans. Some nice lenses, some OKish cameras with sensors that are at least one step behind Sony. Now the latest trend seems to be Android, WiFi, networking. Not very promising in the traditional camera sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they'll drop the whole NX family within a year and concentrate on networked compacts and cameraphones. And the reduced price many NX products sell for tells of the customers' confidence. Saying this as an NX owner with just a small investment in NX gear.

Raffwal wrote: Brand image, marketing, logos. I hope it comes with a more serious technical approach than the half-hearted NX camera family so far despite all the original world domination plans. Some nice lenses, some OKish cameras with sensors that are at least one step behind Sony. Now the latest trend seems to be Android, WiFi, networking. Not very promising in the traditional camera sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they'll drop the whole NX family within a year and concentrate on networked compacts and cameraphones. And the reduced price many NX products sell for tells of the customers' confidence. Saying this as an NX owner with just a small investment in NX gear.
I don't think Samsung will drop NX System... The truth is, ... "Our main camera plant is in China, which makes everything from compact to high-end cameras. We have started converting the compact manufacturing lines there to mirrorless from this year," said Lim Sun-hong, Samsung's vice president of digital imaging business. Samsung Puts Focus on Mirrorless Cameras http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577395362635202048.html Samsung is number ONE Player in SmartPhones area... so of course they know compacts camera is not make money anymore when their SmartPhones improve... Samsung drops Compact Cameras, increase investment to NX System... They are doing the right things....

Thanks Vincent! Your post reflects what i also think about Samsung's strategy. Would be good to have here more contributors w/ deeper Asian ties, to provide the insider views that often escape us, the (self-centered) western audiences. Mitch

Desverger wrote: Samsung Preparing to Reveal 'Radical Brand Makeover' Curious to see how that will affect the NX line. My guess is that they no longer wish to be thought of as a cheap Asian manufacturing company. They certainly have come a long way, because at one point that is exactly what they were.
A brand makeover is not the same thing as a product makeover. Samsung are hobbled by not having world class sensors and a refusal to use 3rd party world class sensors. There is no way around this in the short term other than by "rebranding"

Perhaps Samsung plans to introduce the next NX camera body like this; Gangnam Style! Samsung taps PSY to launch Galaxy Note II in Canada Heh, anyway, on a more serious note. Two things I'd like to add to the discussion about Samsung: 1. The Galaxy S3 is the first model to outsell the iPhone. And all the main components in the S3 are built by Samsung. Another important thing to note is that it took Samsung three tries (hence the 3 in S3). If someone told you back when they first released their Galaxy Android phone that Samsung would be the world leader in smart phones, dramatically outselling Apple, most people would have laughed. But now who's laughing? 2. Samsung is also quite happy just building and selling components. People seem to forget that and think of Samsung as just another camera company. But really, they're more like Sony and are likely to be going after Sony's market and that means they're most certainly planning on selling their sensors to other companies. The NX line is a platform that shows off that sensor and they'll keep pushing the NX line at least until third parties start buying them. And in fact, I think Samsung might more closely follow Sony's path and even attempt to buy/merge/take-over a well established camera company, possibly Pentax. The fact is that the big Japanese electronics companies are suffering big time, Sharp is likely to be the first to take a hit, but Sony and Panasonic are talking about government bail outs. Ya, it's that bad. Samsung however is making record profits. The idea that the Koreans will surpass the Japanese is not as ridiculous today as it was 5 years ago. I'm not saying that's what's gonna happen, just saying Samsung is in a good position and will do what it can to make it happen. Sony, Panasonic, Sharp symbolise Japan's decline as electronics hub

Desverger wrote: Perhaps Samsung plans to introduce the next NX camera body like this; Gangnam Style! Samsung taps PSY to launch Galaxy Note II in Canada Heh, anyway, on a more serious note. Two things I'd like to add to the discussion about Samsung: 1. The Galaxy S3 is the first model to outsell the iPhone. And all the main components in the S3 are built by Samsung. Another important thing to note is that it took Samsung three tries (hence the 3 in S3). If someone told you back when they first released their Galaxy Android phone that Samsung would be the world leader in smart phones, dramatically outselling Apple, most people would have laughed. But now who's laughing? 2. Samsung is also quite happy just building and selling components. People seem to forget that and think of Samsung as just another camera company. But really, they're more like Sony and are likely to be going after Sony's market and that means they're most certainly planning on selling their sensors to other companies. The NX line is a platform that shows off that sensor and they'll keep pushing the NX line at least until third parties start buying them. And in fact, I think Samsung might more closely follow Sony's path and even attempt to buy/merge/take-over a well established camera company, possibly Pentax. The fact is that the big Japanese electronics companies are suffering big time, Sharp is likely to be the first to take a hit, but Sony and Panasonic are talking about government bail outs. Ya, it's that bad. Samsung however is making record profits. The idea that the Koreans will surpass the Japanese is not as ridiculous today as it was 5 years ago. I'm not saying that's what's gonna happen, just saying Samsung is in a good position and will do what it can to make it happen. Sony, Panasonic, Sharp symbolise Japan's decline as electronics hub
Sober reading. Now we know why flat screen television prices have tanked. Can we see a parallel in the spray of new camera models from Panansonic and Sony? There is no doubt some innovation going on there but so many market niche models filling every gap with a variation. We already see stores with rack and racks of look-alike superseded digital compacts. Will we soon see the same thing with the compact systems cameras? Much like close our eyes and "pick-a-box" when you need a TV then might "pick-a-camera" be more a lucky electronic dip than a serious decision in buying an image capture device. At least Samsung make excavators and ships as a sideline and don't rely entirely on flat panel TV, microwaves, mobile phones, or walkmans. The Japanese companies must be desperate for volume products with good profit margins. Economics says that when your business is geared to sell vast quantities of goods at small margins you become very vulnerable to any collapse of your market. Over-supply and peaking technology is like a runaway engine heading for the end of the line. Margins get smaller and demand increases rapidly until saturation takes over. (Splat!). Don't worry about "great sensor" - if a company cannot turn a profit it matters not whether it makes the greatest gear imaginable. The business history of the world is littered with failed organisations that once made great products but could not quickly enough adapt to change. Think Kodak.

Tom Caldwell wrote:
Sober reading. Now we know why flat screen television prices have tanked. Can we see a parallel in the spray of new camera models from Panansonic and Sony? There is no doubt some innovation going on there but so many market niche models filling every gap with a variation. We already see stores with rack and racks of look-alike superseded digital compacts. Will we soon see the same thing with the compact systems cameras? Much like close our eyes and "pick-a-box" when you need a TV then might "pick-a-camera" be more a lucky electronic dip than a serious decision in buying an image capture device.
At least Samsung make excavators and ships as a sideline and don't rely entirely on flat panel TV, microwaves, mobile phones, or walkmans. The Japanese companies must be desperate for volume products with good profit margins. Economics says that when your business is geared to sell vast quantities of goods at small margins you become very vulnerable to any collapse of your market. Over-supply and peaking technology is like a runaway engine heading for the end of the line. Margins get smaller and demand increases rapidly until saturation takes over. (Splat!). Don't worry about "great sensor" - if a company cannot turn a profit it matters not whether it makes the greatest gear imaginable. The business history of the world is littered with failed organisations that once made great products but could not quickly enough adapt to change. Think Kodak.
Tom, you're touching a sensitive spot of the Asian economy. We should recall that Sony has a vibrant camera division, arguably more innovative lately than its competitors together (though smaller). And their sensor fab is the key supplier of most other makers, besides fueling Sony's internal camera biz. Market saturation: My day job is researching the hotspots and saturation regimes (of Cloud networks, same math as economy). Hence i have an inkling of how hard is to catch any such transients, if not persistent (case => trouble). Predicting saturation is much harder, plenty of salt grains are needed. Saturated: You're likely right about filling every niche to saturation, particularly in 2 camera segments: P&S (except the premium niche) and dSLR (except the smaller and cheaper FF, none yet here). The m43 may also be reaching its pre-climax region, currently saved from the ramp-down by (a) its smaller glass size vs. NX & NEX, and (b) ILC option vs. the premium fixed lens. Long-term though, i dare think it's likely to shrink into a niche similar to the premium P&S. OTOH, one may wonder if the fashion-driven volatility of smartphones and tablets is going to become also a camera biz model? These digital markets are fueled by incremental features, fashion and marketing (vs. true innovation). These same concepts may also drive the P&S (saturated, yet refreshed yearly). However, the fashion-driven refresh doesn't hold well in the dSLR segment - except Canon's artificial feature control (vs. Nikon's more 'generous' strategy http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/01/ken-rockwell-on-nikons-big-deception-with-the-d600-d800-and-d4/) Open to debate: The future growth --our eternal obsession!-- of the APS mirrorless vs. the implosion of the rest. And the role of dSLRs outside the pro sub-niche. Surely interesting to some. The APS CSC segment seems on the ramp up, scavenging increasingly larger user bases from dSLRs (lateral shift), P&S and enthusiasts. Besides the camera phone, the mirrorless is likely to become the dominant ecosystem before 2020, despite faint opposition from canikon. Mitch

Wellington100 wrote:
A brand makeover is not the same thing as a product makeover. Samsung are hobbled by not having world class sensors and a refusal to use 3rd party world class sensors. There is no way around this in the short term other than by "rebranding"
You're right, today: Samsung doesn't have yet world-class sensors, whether FF (not at all), APS (1-gen. behind Sony, but one ahead of Canon), or smaller 1-1/2.3". It was not their focus. However, while most pundits expect that only Fuji or Canon could compete w/ Sony --and neither has the means and the market!-- it's actually Samsung that could compete and even win the sensor race for the long term (10+ yrs horizon). They had, e.g., column ADC patents ahead of Sony, not to mention the rest. And also, unlike Canon stuck since a decade at 0.5um (CMOS feature), Samsung arguably has inhouse 0.18um (like Sony) and lower. The foundry biz elicits multi-B$ CAPEX, and Samsung is perhaps the only one capable and poised to do it... But would their speculative dominance benefit us at large? The jury is out... Thus far their closed NX mount and camera OS (one can download the NEX internal OS today, free from Sony) don't instil much confidence in an open future. Wifi, Android, Cloud are all desirable goodies, yet lacking the substance that this venue IMHO is about: High IQ photography with reliable hi-Q products (and long-term horizons). Unlike Samsung's other digital markets, this one is slightly more conservative, more technical and quality/ergonomy-oriented. Hence my investments remain focused on the top FF manual glass adapted to the NX (and NEX!) bodies, and rarely a (bargain, if caught) NX native glass for travel kits. Mitch P.S. The bargain hunter in me can't resist the temptation of a $200 NX100 w/ 20-50kit. This is such an outstanding value as i end up buying them as gifts for family and friends. I wish they'd dry up this stock before my WAF drops too low about my behaviour

migus wrote:
P.S. The bargain hunter in me can't resist the temptation of a $200 NX100 w/ 20-50kit. This is such an outstanding value as i end up buying them as gifts for family and friends. I wish they'd dry up this stock before my WAF drops too low about my behaviour
I liked the WAFterminology; that is a new one on me, and very funny

Samsung is massive and could eat Sony for breakfast if it wanted to. Why hasn't it? Because the NX line hasn't been a major focus so far but I believe they're in it for the long haul. Remember that Samsung are extremely popular in Korea (and the Korean home market is huge) so they've probably only been pushing NX properly there, where they have strong brand loyalty. They are building up their brand globally now, so it's now surprise they want to be considered a more premium-level electronics firm. Remember Samsung's camera line is being built up from new foundations; Sony had the advantage of Minolta's heritage. Sony is being more innovative at the moment, but it needs to be because it's struggling to survive. Opening up the NX lens to other manufacturers would be great, but perhaps the reason it hasn't is because of contracts that promise exclusivity to the current maker of the lenses (a microscope company I believe). I suspect that if such a contract exists that after it expires we'll see NX lenses from other companies.

monkeybrain wrote: Samsung is massive and could eat Sony for breakfast if it wanted to.
People often mention this. Samsung may be big, but cameras and NX are just a tiny fraction of their product family. They won't invest very much in something they don't believe in. And this is what's worrying to me. They made big announcements and had huge plans a couple of years ago and after that are clearly having second thoughts. A company as big as Samsung could easily drop a big division the day they decide there are no long term wins coming.

Raffwal wrote:
monkeybrain wrote: Samsung is massive and could eat Sony for breakfast if it wanted to.
People often mention this. Samsung may be big, but cameras and NX are just a tiny fraction of their product family. They won't invest very much in something they don't believe in. And this is what's worrying to me. They made big announcements and had huge plans a couple of years ago and after that are clearly having second thoughts. A company as big as Samsung could easily drop a big division the day they decide there are no long term wins coming.
I don't want to come across all "flag wavey", but, Samsung have produced a new APS-C sensor, at this stage solely for the NX line (although I'm pretty sure they will be trying to get it used elsewhere). They also released new modesl to replace the NX11 and NX100. They also got several lenses out and the NX lens lineup looks decent to me. I wouldn't confuse releasing a new body every six months with a manufacturer showing long term support for a system. IMO a new body release every 18-24 months shows a better long term strategy. Lots of new body upgrades in quick succession shows a shorter term view, IMO. Especially if the manufacturer is relying on third party lenses. In any case, good luck.

timedrun wrote:
Raffwal wrote:
monkeybrain wrote: Samsung is massive and could eat Sony for breakfast if it wanted to.
People often mention this. Samsung may be big, but cameras and NX are just a tiny fraction of their product family. They won't invest very much in something they don't believe in. And this is what's worrying to me. They made big announcements and had huge plans a couple of years ago and after that are clearly having second thoughts. A company as big as Samsung could easily drop a big division the day they decide there are no long term wins coming.
I don't want to come across all "flag wavey", but, Samsung have produced a new APS-C sensor, at this stage solely for the NX line (although I'm pretty sure they will be trying to get it used elsewhere). They also released new modesl to replace the NX11 and NX100. They also got several lenses out and the NX lens lineup looks decent to me. I wouldn't confuse releasing a new body every six months with a manufacturer showing long term support for a system. IMO a new body release every 18-24 months shows a better long term strategy. Lots of new body upgrades in quick succession shows a shorter term view, IMO. Especially if the manufacturer is relying on third party lenses. In any case, good luck.
All valid points. And don't underestimate the potential significance of the Galaxy Camera release. Strategy-wise, I suspect this may turn out to be quite an interesting development. Only time will tell, I guess.

Hi Hootsman! Totally agree! I believe that the Galaxy (line) will turn out to be the basket that Samsung puts all its eggs in. The Galaxy name is a very successful name for Samsung. They will not be bringing it out to camera land to see it fail and tarnished. It is a sign of them getting serious. I expect that eventually all of their key models will fall under that brand. And that they will put in the dollars to make it succeed! That the line will have a clean modern appearance and a unified look across the models. That they will use their weight to grind down the competition, and eventually have sizable chunk of the market. Thanks

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