Why I decided to stick with NX system

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Even if I was highly disappointed by NX20 (too expensive, bad form factor for my tastes, no IBIS, no focus peaking, average EVF), I decided to stay with NX, and I'm about to buy the 85mm f1.4 at 400 euro (bargain price!), thus investing on this system even more money than I already did (I own the 20mm, 30mm, 60mm, 50-200mm lenses). Why? Simply because, after looking around and testing a lot, there is too little real competition in the mirrorless market to make me want to change system. NEX (5r or 6): great sensors, slightly better than samsung's DR and high ISO wise, but very poor selection of lenses, of not great quality, which are usually so much expensive and bulky when compared to NX ones. Fuji: possibly the best mirrorless body out, but again, for now, few (but good) lenses, and quite expensive (both system and lenses) Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky) M4/3: not a chance that I could go back to smaller sensor after using APS/C. Possibly some models can have very good IQ, DR and so on, but I prefer the shallow DoF that APS/C allows. So, summing up, NX appears to be (for me) the best overall mirrorless system out at this moment, and I really, really, really hope they can put out some Sensor with even better IQ and especially with better high ISO handling, on a camera with rangefinder form factor and swivel screen, possibly with android OS in it.

I'm with you all the way 85mm @ 400 Euros --> where if I may ask ?

at a dealer where I have an agreement. You can read the details here: http://forums.dpzen.com/forums/post/50205125 and in the follow up: http://forums.dpzen.com/forums/post/50278088

You've picked some nice cherries! Each of these NX lenses is arguably unbeatable in IQ @ $*gram. And your NX bodies will not take worse shots w/ your glass just because Sony or Fuji will issue better-sensored/featured future bodies. If Samsung would open their NX mount, or, produce its own adapters to NEX and Fuji, i wouldn't hesitate in purchasing the same glass as you did. Till then though, if ever, i use FF nikkors and canon glass on NX and NEX. Neither compact, nor cheap, not even that great optically (some designs), but the good FF glass is a bit like diamonds: A photogs' best friends ;-). Mitch

migus wrote: You've picked some nice cherries! Each of these NX lenses is arguably unbeatable in IQ @ $*gram. And your NX bodies will not take worse shots w/ your glass just because Sony or Fuji will issue better-sensored/featured future bodies. If Samsung would open their NX mount, or, produce its own adapters to NEX and Fuji, i wouldn't hesitate in purchasing the same glass as you did. Till then though, if ever, i use FF nikkors and canon glass on NX and NEX. Neither compact, nor cheap, not even that great optically (some designs), but the good FF glass is a bit like diamonds: A photogs' best friends ;-). Mitch
Unfortunately, you won't find an NEX or Fuji (X mirrorless) adapter that will work with NX bodies, because the NX lens registration distance is too large. Fuji X == 17.7mm, Sony E (NEX) == 18mm, m4/3 == 20mm, Samsung NX == 25.5mm and Nikon F == 46.5mm. `
The register distance, also referred to as the flange focal distance, is the distance between the lens mount, and the film plane. Modern cameras don't use film anymore, so the film plane is in fact the sensor plane. SLR cameras, with a moving reflex mirror behind the lens mount, need a fairly long register distance. The reason why Micro Four Thirds cameras can be made more compact than SLR cameras, is that they don't need the reflex mirror, and can have a shorter register distance. A lens mount with a short register distance can be considered a universal mount, since it is possible to create adapters for mounts with longer distance. Micro Four Thirds is such a mount.
The new Samsung mirrorless NX format has a longer register distance than Micro Four Thirds. However, the Samung format still has a shorter distance than most relevant formats, e.g., Leica M, so that it is possible to create adapters just as easily as for Micro Four Thirds. On the other hand, the Samsung NX has a register distance about 2mm shorter than Leica M, which may be why Novoflex has not yet announced an adapter for it. 2mm may be too short to make a quality adapter.
http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2010/04/register-distance.html

I don't see this as a problem, as most of us would mostly want to use the appealing NX lenses of NEX and Fuji bodies. Actually a 'guest' lens can be practically adapted to any other 'host' body whose native Host_reg_dist + adapter <= Guest_reg_dist. Hence a NX2NEX adapter could be max 7mm thick, while the reverse adapter is impossible (at the same coverage). Why would anyone wish to mount a NEX lens on a NX body? Problem is that the NX lenses have no true manual controls for focus and aperture, thus there's no use in mechanically mounting them on NEX or FUJI bodies w/o using the NX electrical wiring diagram and control signals. These are kept closed by Samsung (unlike Sony's, which are open). Mitch Note: This reversal is a paradoxical irony, given Sony's fiercely proprietary record track in other fields, and Samsung rather liberal open market, free IP and Android history.

migus wrote: I don't see this as a problem, as most of us would mostly want to use the appealing NX lenses of NEX and Fuji bodies. Actually a 'guest' lens can be practically adapted to any other 'host' body whose native Host_reg_dist + adapter <= Guest_reg_dist. Hence a NX2NEX adapter could be max 7mm thick, while the reverse adapter is impossible (at the same coverage). Why would anyone wish to mount a NEX lens on a NX body?
I certainly wouldn't, but I misunderstood what you wrote, thinking that you wanted to be able to use NEX or Fuji lenses on NX bodies. But I still don't think that what you want would be desirable or achievable. Undesirable because because even if the adapter that lets you use NX lenses on NEX or Fuji bodies lets you adjust the aperture, it would be imprecise, wouldn't show the aperture in the photo's EXIF data, and you'd probably only be able to use Manual or Aperture priority shooting mode. Not achievable because as far as I'm aware, all NX lenses use electronic, motorized "fly-by-wire" focusing, and for "alien" lenses to be able to focus on NEX or Fuji bodies they'd have to have mechanical geared focusing.
Problem is that the NX lenses have no true manual controls for focus and aperture, thus there's no use in mechanically mounting them on NEX or FUJI bodies w/o using the NX electrical wiring diagram and control signals. These are kept closed by Samsung (unlike Sony's, which are open). Mitch Note: This reversal is a paradoxical irony, given Sony's fiercely proprietary record track in other fields, and Samsung rather liberal open market, free IP and Android history.
Oh, I see that I wrote too soon, before getting to this part of your reply, that you were already aware of the difficulty of getting NX lenses to focus. This is where it becomes for all practical purposes, impossible, because for it to work Samsung would have to produce computerized lens adapters that allow their lenses to emulate NEX and Fuji lenses or similarly, Sony and Fuji would have to either design "smart" lens adapters that allow NX lenses to emulate Sony and Fuji lenses, or build the same "smart" capability into their cameras. Camera manufacturers like, say, Samsung, don't have stellar histories for getting relatively simple improvements into firmware updates. I can't imagine that Samsung would ever consider producing inter-brand lens adapters that would not only require massive programming resources, they would also have to find people willing to pay lots of money for the capability, a capability wouldn't bring in any revenue from camera bodies, flashes and other accessories. And also, Fuji and Sony would probably decide to not add NX lens distortion correction and lens firmware update capability to their camera bodies, as it would add even more to the programming support burden. It would be nice if they did, but not anytime soon, I don't think.

See front page news today: http://www.dpzen.com/news/2012/11/13/Metabones-conurus-adds-autofocus-for-recent-canon-ef-ef-s-lenses-to-e-mount-nex-adapter As you say though, impractical. There would not be enough market for such adapter to E or X mounts. Eric

viking79 wrote: See front page news today: http://www.dpzen.com/news/2012/11/13/Metabones-conurus-adds-autofocus-for-recent-canon-ef-ef-s-lenses-to-e-mount-nex-adapter As you say though, impractical. There would not be enough market for such adapter to E or X mounts.
Perfect timing! Considering the poor AF performance, at $400, it's probably going to appeal mostly to owners of lots of Canon lenses, and the low performance ones to boot. I don't think that too many 400mm f/2.8 lens owners would be excited by the prospect of the performance hit of CDAF. It would probably appeal more to WA landscape photographers.

Billx08 wrote:
viking79 wrote: See front page news today: http://www.dpzen.com/news/2012/11/13/Metabones-conurus-adds-autofocus-for-recent-canon-ef-ef-s-lenses-to-e-mount-nex-adapter As you say though, impractical. There would not be enough market for such adapter to E or X mounts.
Perfect timing! Considering the poor AF performance, at $400, it's probably going to appeal mostly to owners of lots of Canon lenses, and the low performance ones to boot. I don't think that too many 400mm f/2.8 lens owners would be excited by the prospect of the performance hit of CDAF. It would probably appeal more to WA landscape photographers.
Agreed, neat to see them doing it, not sure I would buy it (I think I would just buy a cheap rebel instead). I don't quite see the point of buying a $400 adapter to sort of support your Canon lenses on a Sony NEX camera, when Canon has plenty of good cameras already It is definitely possible though to make a smart lens adapter to adapt one companies all electronic lenses to another. I notice that EOS to E adapter doesn't fully support all lenses though, sounds like older lenses aren't accurate enough for it. Eric

Surely the AF speed would be too low for action, yet slower is better than non focus at all. And also the aperture must be controlled. The bidir bus, EXIF and lens correction in body are frills i could live w/o. Good timing for this subject, given the metabones adapter. Also the Android kernel from Samsung may offer an option to add camera functionality, not just apps... Need to look inside and see.

tecnoworld wrote: Even if I was highly disappointed by NX20 (too expensive, bad form factor for my tastes, no IBIS, no focus peaking, average EVF), I decided to stay with NX, and I'm about to buy the 85mm f1.4 at 400 euro (bargain price!), thus investing on this system even more money than I already did (I own the 20mm, 30mm, 60mm, 50-200mm lenses). Why? Simply because, after looking around and testing a lot, there is too little real competition in the mirrorless market to make me want to change system. NEX (5r or 6): great sensors, slightly better than samsung's DR and high ISO wise, but very poor selection of lenses, of not great quality, which are usually so much expensive and bulky when compared to NX ones. Fuji: possibly the best mirrorless body out, but again, for now, few (but good) lenses, and quite expensive (both system and lenses) Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky) M4/3: not a chance that I could go back to smaller sensor after using APS/C. Possibly some models can have very good IQ, DR and so on, but I prefer the shallow DoF that APS/C allows. So, summing up, NX appears to be (for me) the best overall mirrorless system out at this moment, and I really, really, really hope they can put out some Sensor with even better IQ and especially with better high ISO handling, on a camera with rangefinder form factor and swivel screen, possibly with android OS in it.
I had to read this twice and make sure I was in the right forums The nice thing with the cost point on NX20, all you have to do is wait 6 months and the cost becomes much more reasonable. Hopefully Samsung listens and makes a range finder style NX20 equivalent as well, or if they don't do that at least make the NX300 take an accessory viewfinder. IBIS we probably won't get, but as long as you keep your shutter speed up this really isn't an issue. It is definitely a nice to have, but now that I have been without it for a while I don't miss it very often (sometimes I do). I am fairly happy with sensor performance, but a bit better would be nice of course (i.e. instead of matching Canon, match Sony), I think cleaning up high ISO JPEG could go along way for many users impressions of the cameras. Eric

viking79 wrote:
I think cleaning up high ISO JPEG could go along way for many users impressions of the cameras.
Better to simply improve the RAW processing/handling. I was shooting RAW+SF-JPG the other day (kid's b-day, strobe inside, wanted to futz with WB after the fact). Why does it take so long to review??? If it's saving a JPG anyway, it *should* display almost immediately. If I'm just shooting SF-JPG it displays almost instantly in review. And I'm talking about: shoot, wait a long time (buffer is long empty), then hit review. In the end, I gave up on RAW and reverted to JPG. Maybe for people raised on film this isn't an issue, but for those of us born in the digital age... (Is this fixed in latest FW?)

viking79 wrote:
The nice thing with the cost point on NX20, all you have to do is wait 6 months and the cost becomes much more reasonable.
Yep - B&H and Adorama both have it on sale, $300 off = $799 right now. :-o

good points. Personally I bought into samsung mainly as it seemed the best overall compromise of quality and price - also with their emphasis on getting lenses right ahead of bodies I feel they were apporaching it with a sensible long term view. I do think samsung isn't one to rush to the forfront - their other consumer products have started out pretty utilitarian but ramped up well once they built some solid experience.

That's a great decision! I also think that Samsung has the best mirrorless system so far, with Fuji being the second.

the question is though, how many people would leave the NX system if the lenses couldn't be found for bargain prices? i.e. does the nx system really have any true staying power or marketable attribute, or is it just clinging by the strings of its prices right now? the nx system is a great system...but as I'm tempted by low lens prices, more and more i wonder if it's worth investing into and locking myself into it with more purchases.

jj74e wrote: the question is though, how many people would leave the NX system if the lenses couldn't be found for bargain prices? i.e. does the nx system really have any true staying power or marketable attribute, or is it just clinging by the strings of its prices right now? the nx system is a great system...but as I'm tempted by low lens prices, more and more i wonder if it's worth investing into and locking myself into it with more purchases.
Excellent lenses for bargain prices and very descent bodies. So far I haven't seen a more interesting system.

What Samsung really need is (enthusiast) photographers in charge of their camera department. That would really improve things.

wictred wrote: What Samsung really need is (enthusiast) photographers in charge of their camera department. That would really improve things.
Let the lunatics take over the asylum, so to speak?

tecnoworld wrote: Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky)
I tried the EOS-M the other day and it is certainly not something you can just pick up and use if you are used to traditional controls. I much prefer the NX200's standard, extensive control layout. Took forever to figure out how to change the aperture. Two things were very attractive though: the continuous autofocus (tracking, even) which was definitely superior to NX200 (probably because it is aided by on-sensor phase detection), and the 22mm f/2 lens. Looking at the NEX-6, it is attractive except that the body materials are not nearly as nice as the NX200 and I prefer Samsung's taller screen (Sony seems to like 16x9 which squishes my 3:2 and 1:1 shots too much). I don't think the lens selection is all that bad when you factor in the Sigma primes and the recently announced lenses.

Sound like "Why I decided to join the AA." As if it was a task, rather than a pleasure.
tecnoworld wrote: Even if I was highly disappointed by NX20 (too expensive, bad form factor for my tastes, no IBIS, no focus peaking, average EVF), I decided to stay with NX, and I'm about to buy the 85mm f1.4 at 400 euro (bargain price!), thus investing on this system even more money than I already did (I own the 20mm, 30mm, 60mm, 50-200mm lenses).
I come from m43 country (and still live there, just a tourist here). I envy the somtimes incredible prices for Samsung lenses. Most of all because the IQ AND BQ is very good.
Why? Simply because, after looking around and testing a lot, there is too little real competition in the mirrorless market to make me want to change system.
Yes..well...that is very personal of course. But this is a personal story of course. I think most will agree there is plenty of competition though...
NEX (5r or 6): great sensors, slightly better than samsung's DR and high ISO wise, but very poor selection of lenses, of not great quality, which are usually so much expensive and bulky when compared to NX ones.
At least on the IQ part things seem to be changing. The 35 mm f1.8 seems very good.
Fuji: possibly the best mirrorless body out, but again, for now, few (but good) lenses, and quite expensive (both system and lenses)
Hmmm...the AF is a body sort of thing and it is not good. The Fuji's have exceptional IQ and a very distinctive look. I love to see them actually.
Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky)
To me this is a nonstarter as it is. AF is so awfull, you might as well turn it off.
M4/3: not a chance that I could go back to smaller sensor after using APS/C. Possibly some models can have very good IQ, DR and so on, but I prefer the shallow DoF that APS/C allows.
How would a f1.2 (coming) f1.4 25 mm, f1.7 20 mm. f1.8 17/45/75 mm, f2.8 150 mm (coming) and 35-100 f2.8 and the 60 mm f2.8 macro (with lovely bokeh) not provide enough DOF? There is really no problem with these lenses. Sometimes I think the bokeh is much more distracting or pleasing that just the DOF on its own. Also: AF is fast on most of those lenses. I have the EPL5 now with GH2, EPL5 tracking AF is, well, pretty good. Mch better than expected. So when we talk about competition it seems m43 offers most versatile system currently. Lenses are pretty expensive compared to Samsung ones, but they are on par and some seem to be exceptional. But you pay for them sometimes.
So, summing up, NX appears to be (for me) the best overall mirrorless system out at this moment, and I really, really, really hope they can put out some Sensor with even better IQ and especially with better high ISO handling, on a camera with rangefinder form factor and swivel screen, possibly with android OS in it.
Some of the things you mention here can readily be found in m43s or Sony NX. I am used to the swiveling screen and wholeheartedly agree with you that it is such a nice feature. My EPL5 has a tilting screen. Better than nothing, but I miss my swiveling screen at times. Rangefinder body would be nice, I don't mind adding the VF2/3 on the EPL5 to get me that (virtually..). Other than that glad you are happy with your choice. The NX is the most underestimated system out there. Everytime I write here I can say that Samsung should marketit sooo much better....A positive thing that in some shops they get more and more space lately! A rangefinder body would be a great addition to the NX line I feel. Cheers!

Jorginho wrote: Sound like "Why I decided to join the AA." As if it was a task, rather than a pleasure.
tecnoworld wrote: Even if I was highly disappointed by NX20 (too expensive, bad form factor for my tastes, no IBIS, no focus peaking, average EVF), I decided to stay with NX, and I'm about to buy the 85mm f1.4 at 400 euro (bargain price!), thus investing on this system even more money than I already did (I own the 20mm, 30mm, 60mm, 50-200mm lenses).
I come from m43 country (and still live there, just a tourist here). I envy the somtimes incredible prices for Samsung lenses. Most of all because the IQ AND BQ is very good.
Why? Simply because, after looking around and testing a lot, there is too little real competition in the mirrorless market to make me want to change system.
Yes..well...that is very personal of course. But this is a personal story of course. I think most will agree there is plenty of competition though...
NEX (5r or 6): great sensors, slightly better than samsung's DR and high ISO wise, but very poor selection of lenses, of not great quality, which are usually so much expensive and bulky when compared to NX ones.
At least on the IQ part things seem to be changing. The 35 mm f1.8 seems very good.
Fuji: possibly the best mirrorless body out, but again, for now, few (but good) lenses, and quite expensive (both system and lenses)
Hmmm...the AF is a body sort of thing and it is not good. The Fuji's have exceptional IQ and a very distinctive look. I love to see them actually.
Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky)
To me this is a nonstarter as it is. AF is so awfull, you might as well turn it off.
M4/3: not a chance that I could go back to smaller sensor after using APS/C. Possibly some models can have very good IQ, DR and so on, but I prefer the shallow DoF that APS/C allows.
How would a f1.2 (coming) f1.4 25 mm, f1.7 20 mm. f1.8 17/45/75 mm, f2.8 150 mm (coming) and 35-100 f2.8 and the 60 mm f2.8 macro (with lovely bokeh) not provide enough DOF? There is really no problem with these lenses. Sometimes I think the bokeh is much more distracting or pleasing that just the DOF on its own. Also: AF is fast on most of those lenses. I have the EPL5 now with GH2, EPL5 tracking AF is, well, pretty good. Mch better than expected. So when we talk about competition it seems m43 offers most versatile system currently. Lenses are pretty expensive compared to Samsung ones, but they are on par and some seem to be exceptional. But you pay for them sometimes.
So, summing up, NX appears to be (for me) the best overall mirrorless system out at this moment, and I really, really, really hope they can put out some Sensor with even better IQ and especially with better high ISO handling, on a camera with rangefinder form factor and swivel screen, possibly with android OS in it.
Some of the things you mention here can readily be found in m43s or Sony NX. I am used to the swiveling screen and wholeheartedly agree with you that it is such a nice feature. My EPL5 has a tilting screen. Better than nothing, but I miss my swiveling screen at times. Rangefinder body would be nice, I don't mind adding the VF2/3 on the EPL5 to get me that (virtually..). Other than that glad you are happy with your choice. The NX is the most underestimated system out there. Everytime I write here I can say that Samsung should marketit sooo much better....A positive thing that in some shops they get more and more space lately! A rangefinder body would be a great addition to the NX line I feel. Cheers!
thanks for coming by to patronise us joringho, feel free to pop round any time you need an ego boost.

"Patronize US" You are the spokesperson of all over here or do you need to make yourself bigger to give your argument some cachet?? I am not doing that BTW, patronizing, you may feel that way. I had zero such intentions and the first sentence was really how it came across to me and also meant as an honest joke. If you read it that way, it is kind of funny. I found it funny. I know he and a lot of users out there are happy with the Samsung NX. I fail to see any patronizing in it, but if I somehow did I am sorry. Just have a different opinion on some things he writes and agree on others.

Jorginho wrote: "Patronize US" You are the spokesperson of all over here or do you need to make yourself bigger to give your argument some cachet?? I am not doing that BTW, patronizing, you may feel that way. I had zero such intentions and the first sentence was really how it came across to me and also meant as an honest joke. If you read it that way, it is kind of funny. I found it funny. I know he and a lot of users out there are happy with the Samsung NX. I fail to see any patronizing in it, but if I somehow did I am sorry. Just have a different opinion on some things he writes and agree on others.
oh joringho, i remember you from way back. When nx10 came out you had huge cut and pastes prepared, with graphs(!) even to explain to the nx buyers all about their mistakes. You used to argue relentlessly against anyone who dared to like an nx, on this message board, the nx one, you know? for nx owners. You even railed against nx/m43 users that actually had first hand experience of the respective cameras (i.e not you). you were a scurge on here, the worst kind of contributor. if you have posted an apology for your previous behaviour i apologise, but if not? then i have seen all this talk from you before. it normally happens after youve bought a new m43 cam and you want to kick the cat over it. samsung owners being the "cat". youre a sales rep mate.

Jorginho wrote: Sound like "Why I decided to join the AA." As if it was a task, rather than a pleasure.
tecnoworld wrote: Canon (EOS-M): nice sensor, on par with Samsung's latest, I'd say, but again not so many native lenses (great selection of adaptable ones, but bulky)
To me this is a nonstarter as it is. AF is so awfull, you might as well turn it off.
The AF was excellent with the 22mm when I tried it.

Okey. Than this has changed. I saw that DigitalRev review and read many others that were really irritated by the AF especially the PDAF (does it do CDAF). Was there a firmware upgrade you know of? Good to hear it is better now. The more choice, the better.

Jorginho wrote: Okey. Than this has changed. I saw that DigitalRev review and read many others that were really irritated by the AF especially the PDAF (does it do CDAF). Was there a firmware upgrade you know of? Good to hear it is better now. The more choice, the better.
Yep, playing around with that combo gave me the impression that it is a very viable AF system, contrary to the impression I got from some reviews. Firmware could be involved, this was of course a recent production camera from a retailer, vs. early samples. I suspect the 22mm prime kit could be one of the fastest as it is a fairly wide prime and made specifically for that camera, which you would expect to perform better than what some of the reviewers were testing with like EF 24-70 with adapter... This adds more fuel to my theory that it makes sense to pick your whole camera kit at once, including lenses, and be prepared to sell the whole thing if your needs change. Now that is really why I'm sticking with the NX system. I decided I needed a normal-ish lens (the 30mm f2) and a couple of cheap zooms, a small light body, shallow depth of field and DSLR-level image quality. The NX seems to fit the bill and I really ought to have no need to change this for several years.

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